Tariff Fears Drive Up Mortgage Charges

Dave:A concern of tariffs is driving up mortgage charges proper now and slowing down the market. At present. We’re uncovering how and why tariffs are taking part in such an enormous function within the housing market proper now and why some forecast for 2025, together with my very own would possibly already be incorrect. Becoming a member of me to speak about all that is Redfin’s, chief economist Chen Zhao, who’s going to assist us perceive this complete state of affairs with tariffs and share some insights into why all these items that President Trump has been speaking about is spilling over into mortgage charges and subsequently into the housing market. Plus she’s going to share with us a fairly loopy new survey. It was stunning to me displaying {that a} third of householders performed to by no means promote their properties and Chen goes to share what I feel is a fairly sizzling tackle the long-term worth of actual property. Let’s leap in. Jen, welcome again to On the Market. Thanks for being right here once more.

Chen:Thanks a lot for having me, Dave.

Dave:Properly, I’m excited to speak to you. You and your crew do such nice analysis at Redfin. I’m hoping you might assist us all by beginning with simply an summary of the housing market as we enter 2025, not less than as you and your crew see it.

Chen:Positive, completely. So coming into 2025, I’d say that the housing market is a bit of bit sluggish to date. I feel the principle problem actually is that mortgage charges are sitting simply above 7%. So we’re beginning the 12 months with fairly excessive mortgage charges, just a bit bit greater than the place we had been a 12 months in the past. The opposite factor that’s sort of holding the market again proper now’s that we had been sort of seeing quite a lot of excessive climate patterns throughout the nation. Clearly we now have these wildfires in California, we now have extraordinarily chilly climate and huge components of the nation that don’t actually see that sort of climate fairly often.

Dave:Yeah, snowing in Florida the opposite day.

Chen:Yeah, so fairly loopy. After which along with that, we inaugurated a brand new president and that additionally causes totally different patterns of conduct within the housing market the place some folks is likely to be holding off to see sort of what occurs with the brand new administration total. We ended the 12 months with pending gross sales down a bit of bit in December, and I feel we’re nonetheless down a bit of bit to begin off the 12 months proper now. And what we’re seeing by way of demand for excursions from Redfin can also be down fairly a bit from the place we had been within the final couple of months. So it does look like the market is a bit of bit sluggish and excessive charges most likely go a protracted solution to explaining that sluggishness.

Dave:That’s unlucky to listen to as a result of I really feel like the final consensus has been that 2025 was going to be a 12 months the place we noticed not less than a modest uptick in gross sales quantity and it seems like we’re not fairly there but. Do you assume that’s going to, I do know you don’t have a crystal ball, however do you anticipate that that speculation that I feel quite a lot of forecasters had may nonetheless come true all through the course of the 12 months?

Chen:Yeah, I feel during the last couple of years I’ve typically wished that I had a very good crystal ball, but it surely’s been exhausting. It’s been very unstable these final couple of years. I feel you’re proper although that normally forecasts across the finish of 2024 had been that 2025 will see a bit of little bit of an uptick there, I feel is quite a lot of uncertainty. Quite a lot of that has to do with we do have a brand new administration in place. The insurance policies which may come into play, what that new administration may actually have an effect on mortgage charges quite a bit and that would actually have an effect on the path of the housing market. That being stated, the final couple of years, the sample that we noticed within the housing market was that we began the 12 months sturdy and issues step by step received worse over the course of the 12 months. This 12 months what we’re seeing is that we’re truly coming in a bit of bit weaker, however I feel that that doesn’t essentially imply that this 12 months will finish weaker than the final couple of years. So dwelling gross sales for the final couple of years was proper round 4 million for present dwelling gross sales final 12 months, 2024 was down about 1% from the earlier 12 months. This 12 months truly has the potential I feel to get a bit of bit higher, though there’s quite a lot of uncertainty and we will speak about these sources of uncertainty extra, however I feel that it nonetheless holds that we may count on that this 12 months you see a bit of little bit of an uptick perhaps someplace within the single digit vary by way of a share enhance from final 12 months.

Dave:One of many issues I’ve seen about redfin’s predictions for the approaching 12 months is that you simply’ve had mortgage charges form of on the excessive finish of consensus. It looks like most individuals really feel like mortgage charges are going to go down. Some folks say as little as 5 and a half, 5 and three quarters. I feel in your reporting you stated about 6.8%, which is extra in keeping with what I’ve been considering. I simply preserve considering that there individuals are overly optimistic about charges. Are you able to simply inform us a bit of bit about what went into that forecast and why you end up on the excessive finish of the vary?

Chen:So to begin with, I’d say we might very a lot welcome decrease charges. I feel everybody would really feel decrease charges. I feel what’s holding us again is that I feel just a few issues. So I’d put them into two broad buckets. The primary is the energy of the financial system. The second is fiscal coverage coming from DC on the primary bucket, the energy of the financial system. What we’ve seen from the financial system the final couple of years is simply that despite the fact that economists preserve predicting a recession that there have to be weak spot proper across the nook as a result of the Fed has introduced charges up so excessive and simply saved them so excessive for therefore lengthy that that’s simply not occurring. The labor market remains to be sturdy proper now. The most recent knowledge that we now have is that the unemployment fee is 4.1%. We’re nonetheless creating about, it looks like 180,000 jobs per 30 days.That was the typical fee over 2024, and that’s very similar to what you noticed in 20 16, 17, 18, 19. That is all per sturdy financial progress proper now, and that is regardless of the place the Fed has been preserving rates of interest. So in that set of circumstances the place inflation can also be nonetheless only a hair above the place the Fed desires it to be, so 12 months over 12 months core PCE is about 2.8% proper now. That implies that the Fed actually has little or no incentive to chop. So proper now Fed is predicting 2 25 foundation factors cuts this 12 months. That’s what markets expect as nicely. We received 4 within the final quarter, 2024, but it surely actually looks like we’re slowing down and we’d actually be coming to a halt on these fee cuts. So I feel that’s one bucket of points that basically don’t level to charges coming down within the close to time period.And if something, I’d say it looks like we’re slowly coming to the conclusion that we’re simply in a brand new regime the place charges simply should be greater total. I virtually consider this as if you’re coming into center age, your metabolism slows down and it’s identical to you’re in a brand new regime now. Issues are totally different, so there’s no regular that you simply’re going again to. After which the second factor is what’s occurring with fiscal coverage and commerce coverage in dc? So if you’re trying on the 30 12 months mortgage fee proper now, so in mid-September that hit, in case you have a look at mortgage information day by day, about 6.1% as we speak it’s sitting about 7.1%. Quite a lot of that enhance got here proper round November, proper across the election within the weeks main as much as the election and proper after the election. What that was in response to was this expectation that when President Trump comes into workplace that he would levy quite a lot of new tariffs on totally different international locations and people tariffs are inflationary.That’s what economists would count on and that will result in greater charges. So what I’d say is that one share level distinction between the place mortgage charges are proper now and the place they had been in mid-September, this isn’t a really exact estimate, however a very good half of it’s most likely due to commerce coverage or expectations round commerce coverage. Now after all, Trump was inaugurated on Monday and what to date we now have seen no actual motion on tariffs and we’ll proceed to see a monitor the place this truly lands. However as expectations round that change, mortgage charges may go up or down. But when we see actually any vital motion on tariffs, particularly tariffs which might be actually broad primarily based that have an effect on quite a lot of items throughout quite a lot of totally different international locations, that can actually preserve charges excessive. After which the second a part of the fiscal coverage coming from DC is absolutely tax coverage and authorities spending. What we’ve heard from the brand new administration is a need to proceed and even enhance the tax cuts from the TCJA. So if we see any enhance within the authorities deficit, what that normally means is greater charges primarily.

Dave:Are you able to simply clarify why enhance in deficit, we have already got this big deficit. If it doubtlessly goes greater, why does that imply mortgage charges are going to remain greater?

Chen:So when the federal government runs a deficit, what it has to do is it has to borrow cash. And the best way the federal authorities borrows cash is to problem treasury securities. In order that could possibly be short-term treasury debt, it could possibly be long-term treasury debt, however in impact, you may have extra provide of treasuries on the market. And as soon as the provision of something will increase, which means normally the value decreases although for presidency bonds when the value goes down, the yield or the speed goes up. So we see this anytime there’s concern amongst buyers about how a lot deficit and debt the federal government is taking up, what you see is charges going up. What we’re most involved about once we’re excited about housing is tenure treasuries, proper? That’s sort of the benchmark authorities safety. So if we predict that there’s going to be extra deficit, that normally means the yield on the ten 12 months goes up and what virtually at all times follows is that 30 12 months mortgage charges go up as nicely.

Dave:Okay, nice. Yeah. Simply to summarize for everybody, simply so everybody actually understands right here, what China is saying is that when there’s a big deficit, they need to problem extra treasuries or bonds, and principally that floods the market with a provide of bonds. And when that occurs and demand stays fixed, it pushes down the value that individuals are keen to pay for these treasuries When that occurs, as a result of within the bond market, treasuries and yields are inversely correlated, that implies that yields go up and that pushes mortgage charges up. And so it sounds such as you’re saying one of many massive parts right here of mortgage charges going up is all this coverage in DC that’s doubtlessly creating a much bigger deficit. And I wished to circle again to one thing you stated earlier as a result of it appears to me, and proper me in case you assume I’m incorrect right here, is that quite a lot of that is simply due to the uncertainty. I feel the market can alter or will alter if tariffs go in place, if a tax minimize goes in place that we all know the main points of. However simply on condition that Trump was inaugurated just a few days in the past and nobody actually is aware of the main points of this, it appears to me that the market is being further cautious, simply not realizing what to anticipate and making an attempt to perhaps simply step again a bit of bit and wait to see what truly comes subsequent.

Chen:I feel there’s positively a part of that. So let’s simply take tariffs for instance. This tariffs are one thing that’s sort of straightforward to quantify. What sort of tariffs are you placing on which international locations? I feel from the market’s perspective, what President Trump and others round him have stated actually create a variety of potentialities. So in the course of the marketing campaign, president Trump talked about doubtlessly we’ll do 60% tariffs on China, perhaps we’ll do 10, 20% tariffs on the remainder of the world. And people numbers moved round a bit of bit. I don’t assume markets are pricing in something like that.

Dave:Okay.

Chen:I feel what markets are pricing in is a few fraction of that taking place. One thing that I’ve been paying actually shut consideration to is analysis stories coming from Wall Road funding banks, as a result of that provides you a fairly good sense of what the road is considering may be very more likely to occur. For instance, Goldman Sachs put out some analysis earlier this week. They’d guess that the almost definitely tariffs to be applied. What’s about 70%? Odds are very particular tariffs on some items coming from China. So there’s some items that we already put tariffs on from China, and people tariffs may enhance by 60 share factors or a few of ’em 25 share factors for others. However focused tariffs on sure items from China after which additionally on automobiles from Mexico, which could see as much as one hundred percent tariffs, however they’re solely placing a 25% chance on an extra throughout the board, 20% tariff on all items from China and solely 25% odds on and throughout the board, 10% tariff on all items from all international locations. After which President Trump has talked about a pair occasions that he want to put 25% tariffs on all items from Mexico and Canada, they usually’re solely placing 20% odds on that proper now. So what we’re seeing proper now within the mortgage fee, which is sort of reflecting what Wall Road expectations are, is absolutely solely a fraction of what President Trump has already stated. So in that sense, I wouldn’t essentially say that markets are conservative proper now as a result of the eventuality definitely there’s quite a lot of scope for it to be quite a bit worse.

Dave:Nonetheless,

Chen:On the flip aspect, there’s additionally quite a lot of scope for it to be quite a bit faster. So for instance, on day one, we noticed flurry of exercise from the Trump administration, however we didn’t actually see any actual concrete motion on tariffs. So there was a directive to begin doing investigations and to report again by April 1st. So we noticed some chatter about these 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada and perhaps 10% on China, however there wasn’t any, Hey, we’re truly doing it proper now in order that you might virtually learn as a sign. Possibly issues will truly be much less extreme than anticipated, however on the finish of the day, I feel what you actually need to say is that there’s simply quite a lot of uncertainty and we don’t know the place it’s going to go, but it surely actually could possibly be worse or higher. And so subsequently charges may go a bit of bit greater or there’s quite a lot of room for charges to return down a bit of bit as nicely. However that uncertainty is a big a part of why our forecast for charges is so excessive.

Dave:All proper. Thanks a lot for explaining that. And I’m actually serious about what you simply stated. I feel that final half is tremendous vital as a result of my assumption appears to be a bit incorrect right here was that individuals had been going to take Trump at face worth and actually defend. However it does appear that the consensus is that quite a lot of these said positions in the course of the marketing campaign and since taking workplace are extra of a negotiated place. And it seems like the road is form of taking that and operating with it that Trump is throwing out actually dramatic tariffs in an effort to attempt to minimize a deal that’s most likely much less dramatic. And so the market is pricing that in, however as Chen stated, which means charges may worsen if Trump’s what he’s been saying truly does come to fruition. We’ve received extra to unpack with Chen out particularly about what is going on on the provision aspect of issues available in the market. So don’t go wherever. We’ll be proper again.Welcome again to On the Market. I’m Dave Meyer right here with Chen Zhao from Redfin, and we’re speaking in regards to the newest analysis on house owner tendencies. All proper, Chen, so we’ve talked quite a bit about the way forward for charges. Clearly nobody is aware of precisely what’s going to occur. We each really feel there’s quite a lot of uncertainty. However I wished to modify the dialog to some current analysis that you simply and your crew have been doing at Redfin. Most notably a survey I examine householders supposed conduct and that quite a lot of householders are simply saying that they’re by no means going to promote their dwelling. And this appears notably vital on this locked in period the place stock is especially low and lots of people are questioning when that’s going to interrupt and open again up. Are you able to inform us first just a bit bit in regards to the survey and what you discovered?

Chen:So we surveyed a bunch of householders and what we discovered is that about 60% say that they don’t actually have any plans to promote their dwelling for not less than 10 years.

Dave:Okay.

Chen:So of that one third is saying that they’re simply by no means going to promote. After which one other 27% say they wouldn’t contemplate promoting for not less than 10 years. After which the remaining portion about 24% would plan to promote in about 5 to 10 years, and about 15% say they might be keen to promote inside the subsequent 5 years. However the actually putting factor right here is that 60% are actually saying it’s not less than 10 years from now.

Dave:And what do you make of that? Is that due to mortgage charges or is that this a much bigger behavioral preferences, societal change than simply strictly monetary?

Chen:I feel there are such a lot of various things occurring right here. So I feel there’s a demographic part to this, which is that normally, we all know that there’s an rising desire to age in place proper now. So what we’re seeing on this survey is that the older householders are those who usually tend to say that they’re by no means going to promote. That’s 43% of child boomers within the survey are saying that they’re by no means going to promote in comparison with simply 34% of Gen X householders and solely 28% of millennial or Gen Z householders. So there actually is a really sturdy demographic part to this. There may be additionally a second part, which is lots of people moved just lately in the course of the pandemic.And so we all know that that pulled ahead quite a lot of demand and hollows out demand for the subsequent sort of set of years, and we’re nonetheless in that subsequent set of years. So it’s not that shocking that lots of people are saying, I simply moved. I don’t want to maneuver once more. After which the third part, which I feel might be crucial, I’d guess, is absolutely monetary, but it surely’s not simply mortgage charges. I feel it’s each the price of properties but in addition mortgage charges. So it’s dwelling costs and mortgage charges on the similar time. So in our survey we requested householders why they wouldn’t need to promote, and 30% cited excessive dwelling costs and 18% cited that they don’t need to surrender their present low mortgage fee. And the explanation why I need to emphasize the excessive dwelling costs is that one, about 40% of householders truly personal their properties free and clear, so that they don’t actually need to finance anyway.So actually they’re simply taking a look at, if I’ve to purchase a brand new home, it’s going to be far more costly. The second purpose is that we simply had this lengthy dialogue about mortgage charges. I don’t assume the percentages of mortgage charges coming down within the close to time period, medium time period are actually superb in any respect. I used to be saying about this new regime of low metabolism, however what can occur is that dwelling costs can alter on this new regime for plenty of causes, together with simply that charges are greater. There’s quite a lot of consideration proper now on simply mortgage charges, mortgage charges, mortgage charges. However I feel excited about what the trajectory for costs is equally if no more vital,

Dave:I positively need to come again to that in regards to the value trajectory. Tremendous vital right here, however simply wished to dig in on a few the demographic questions right here. You stated that child boomers are the largest group that stated that they’re by no means going to promote at 43%. I’m positive you’ve heard this time period, the silver tsunami earlier than, the place folks have been predicting that sooner or later the entire child boomers, what was the largest era in the USA had been they’re all going to promote and a few constricted time frame was going to flood the market with provide and it was going to trigger dwelling costs to crash. I’ve personally by no means actually purchased into that, however I’m curious in case you assume there’s any likelihood of that taking place. It appears that evidently the survey doesn’t help that concept of a silver tsunami. The truth is, it most likely helps the alternative is that we’re going to have constrained provide due to child boomer exercise.

Chen:Yeah, I’m glad you by no means purchased into it. I don’t purchase into it both. Yeah, I simply don’t assume that there’s ever actually a tsunami coming. I feel what we’re taking a look at is absolutely extra so identical to a trickle, proper? It’s a giant era. I feel the trickle can form of wax and wing over time, but it surely’s exhausting to pinpoint what would trigger this big flood to occur. What time limit would set off all these child boomers to promote directly? I don’t assume that that’s going to occur. We all know from a number of surveys that individuals have a really sturdy desire to stay in their very own dwelling, in their very own group, and quite a lot of that’s as a result of they don’t like what their different choices are. They don’t just like the assisted dwelling choices. They don’t just like the housing inventory of their group as a result of there’s nothing actually that will swimsuit their wants higher than what they have already got. So sure, definitely some people will age out indirectly as a result of they go away or as a result of they’re compelled into some form of assisted dwelling group. However I simply can’t pinpoint something that will set off an precise tsunami.

Dave:Yeah, I completely agree. I feel the entire thing has been just a bit bit overblown, and I do surprise if a few of this survey knowledge is aspirational to not be morbid, however I feel lots of people need to age in place, however the realities of rising outdated generally will intrude and that some folks must transfer into assisted dwelling amenities or another dwelling association. However I feel the intent is absolutely vital right here and that it’s going to take quite a bit for that to vary. Stick round After this brief break, we’ll discover the broader implication of Redfin’s report you gained’t need to miss. Welcome again to in the marketplace. Let’s leap again in. So let’s return to what you stated about value forecast. It’s too tempting to ask about since you’re principally saying charges are going to remain greater in your opinion. I are inclined to agree I’ve a tough time seeing what’s going to drag charges down actually dramatically within the brief to medium time period. And it seems like perhaps you assume which means costs are going to not less than flatten or perhaps even flip detrimental. Is that proper?

Chen:So yeah, so I need to be actually cautious what to say right here. So what I’d say is that over the course of the subsequent 12 months, our forecast is that dwelling costs are going to rise about 4%.So within the close to time period, we do assume costs will proceed rising as a result of we do assume that demand is outstripping provide. We’re nonetheless sort of on this lot in state of affairs. Over the long run although, I feel that the chance is to the draw back for costs. And the explanation why I feel that’s the case is just because affordability metrics have simply gotten fully out of whack. After the pandemic. First you noticed the large runup in costs, then you definitely received the massive runup in charges, and also you’re not getting any reduction on charges. So now whether or not you have a look at it as revenue to cost or nevertheless you need to measure it, it’s simply fully out of equilibrium. And so sooner or later it simply feels just like the dam has to interrupt and it’s important to return to what’s an equilibrium that you’ve noticed over lengthy intervals of time as a result of folks merely can not afford properties at these costs.So I feel that’s one purpose that I’d cite. The second is definitely simply demographic. So we all know that proper now we’re going sort of that largest a part of the millennial era by way of the prime dwelling shopping for age. So variety when the snake is swallowing like a mouse or one thing. It’s the way you see it that massive lump going via proper now. However what follows after that’s smaller generations. After which on prime of that, we additionally know that we had an enormous inflow of immigration in the previous couple of years. Nonetheless, trying ahead, all the pieces factors to decrease immigration and never simply due to the present administration’s insurance policies, however as a result of over even the longer horizon, in case you look world wide, populations are sort of falling, start charges are falling. So if you wish to look over a very lengthy horizon, the place would the immigrants even be coming from is a query it’s important to begin asking your self. So in case you’re trying over that sort of horizon, the demographic pressures actually level to much less housing demand, which is nice within the sense that in case you’re actually anxious in regards to the housing scarcity, which we all know we now have an acute housing scarcity proper now, that’s excellent news. Nonetheless, that does imply that the stress on costs is absolutely extra to the draw back than to the upside, particularly in case you’re nonetheless in an setting the place charges are staying fairly excessive.

Dave:Wow, that’s tremendous attention-grabbing. Yeah, I’ve thought quite a bit in regards to the demographic points as a result of yeah, the start fee goes down and we are going to work via the bump in demographics via millennials over the subsequent couple of years. And I don’t know in case you have this info, however I’ve at all times sort of puzzled if it could form of attain some equilibrium as a result of provide progress isn’t that nice, and if it could form of just like the substitute fee of properties that develop into uninhabitable or simply principally go away the overall provide would form of simply counteract the demographic development. However I’m curious in case you have any ideas on that.

Chen:Yeah, I do assume that you will notice a few of that for positive, however I additionally assume that over the subsequent few years it appears like there’s a robust push to deregulation and powerful push in the direction of insurance policies that will promote extra housing provide. That’s sort of typically what you see when you may have Republican sweep of the federal authorities. So I really feel like if we’re in a position to scale back the price of development, ought to nonetheless put some upward stress on provide.

Dave:After which for the subsequent few years, you stated you do nonetheless see demand outstripping provide, so costs such as you stated, may go up within the subsequent few years. Is that simply as a consequence of demographics charges are so excessive, however there’s a ton of millennials, gen Z, who need properties proper now.

Chen:Yeah, I imply particularly over this coming 12 months, you continue to have quite a lot of demographic tailwinds. You’re additionally benefiting from actually the truth that folks have quite a lot of wealth is asset costs are excessive. So that you see the inventory market is at report highs, crypto issues, but in addition quite a lot of dwelling consumers are additionally present householders. And people excessive dwelling costs additionally assist that group as nicely.

Dave:Bought it. Okay. Is there the rest from this survey that you simply assume our viewers ought to know? There was quite a bit in there, however are there any takeaways or actionable suggestions that you’ve for a way a possible purchaser would possibly navigate this example?

Chen:One factor I’d level out is that if you hear six out of 10, householders don’t intend to promote their properties for not less than 10 years. Initially, I’d say you identified what folks intend and what they are saying they intend. And what they really find yourself doing are generally two fully separate issues.And secondly, 15% say they plan to promote in 5 years or much less. I need to take into consideration that quantity within the context of one other report that we did, which was that in, I feel it’s like the primary eight months of 20 24, 2 and a half % of properties modified fingers. That’s the turnover fee in housing. And that was a report low principally for the entire historical past that we observe. And so what I’d say is that that 15% planning to promote in 5 years or much less, to begin with, I feel may truly find yourself being greater as a result of what folks say and what they intend to do may very well not be the identical factor. But in addition simply that two level a 5% was actually low, however the historic fee is extra like three or 4%. So this isn’t truly how the maths works, however in case you sort of consider it behind the envelope form of means occasions 5 years is definitely not that far-off from that 15%. So what I’m saying is that despite the fact that 15% promoting their properties within the subsequent 5 years sounds actually low, that truly may imply that the lock-in impact is in truth easing. And we may see an actual easing of the lock-in impact over the subsequent 5 years. In order that’s the takeaway that I must from them.

Dave:All proper. Properly, that is actually useful, Chad. I imply, I feel we hear quite a bit about demographics and the way they help housing costs, not less than within the brief run, however the form of long-term perspective is tremendous useful for actual property buyers. It’s positively given me quite a bit to consider by way of the way you need place belongings. I personally don’t assume it means actual property is now not going to be a very good asset class, but it surely does make you assume that it’s important to be a bit extra strategic about the place you’re going to purchase what you’re going to purchase to seek out one thing that’s going to not less than keep its worth over the long term.

Chen:Yeah, no, I fully agree. And I feel it’s vital to do not forget that we’re speaking total nationwide image, sort of a nationwide common, totally different pockets. You’re going to see totally different patterns doubtlessly, particularly in numerous geographies or totally different segments of the market.

Dave:Yeah, positively. So another excuse why, to maintain monitor of what’s occurring in your market and hearken to podcasts like this the place we inform you what’s occurring in numerous pockets of the nation. Properly, Jen, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us once more. It’s at all times a pleasure to have you ever right here. We actually admire it.

Chen:Yeah, after all. Thanks a lot for having me on.

Dave:Thanks all for listening to this episode of On The Market. We’ll be again in a few days for an additional episode. We’ll see you then.